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NEW: IDA denies PILOT application for Kohl's
by Francesca Olsen
The Columbia County Industrial Development Agency board has denied Widewaters’ application for a 20-year, $61,600 payment in lieu of taxes (PILOT) agreement for a Kohl’s in Greenport.
The board voted unanimously that the application “not be accepted in its current form,” followed by applause from a large cross-section of residents and elected officials who attended the 8 a.m. IDA meeting.
The IDA board members agreed that they felt uncomfortable with a 20-year PILOT. Director of Planning and Economic Development Ken Flood said he would continue to negotiate with Widewaters representatives for a shorter PILOT term.
“I’d love to see a Kohl’s come in,” said Mary Ackley of the IDA board. “Bottom line, I don’t feel comfortable with the 20 years.”
Widewaters General Counsel of Retail Development Marco Marzocchi has repeatedly said that without a PILOT, there would be no Kohl’s, and that the 20-year time line is non-negotiable.
“Kohl’s is a great company. It makes a lot of money. Don’t you want that?” Marzocchi asked the IDA members at the meeting. “Can we get over the term? Otherwise we have nothing to talk about.”
“There has to be room for negotiation,” said Donald Kline, also on the IDA board. “For them to say that that’s not going to happen...to me, that’s being arrogant to us.”
Ackley asked Marzocchi if Widewaters would consider a 15-year PILOT. “We’ve been talking for months with this board,” Marzocchi said.
“And when I did speak with you, it was clear that 20 years was it,” Ackley said.
Sid Richter of the IDA board asked how many PILOTS have been given to Kohl’s in New York state already. Attorney John Faso, who is representing Widewaters, said that his research showed three 20-year retail PILOTS given recently: one in Steuben County, one in Seneca County and one 30-year PILOT in 2009 in Monroe County.
Flood said he spoke with two attorneys from law firms who serve as counsel to a number of upstate New York IDAs and “when I talked to them, they did not remember any 20 year PILOT with no taxes on a new building for retail.”
Members of the public were permitted to comment before the vote on the PILOT application. While some were heavily in favor of the application’s approval, most who spoke did not think the application should be approved in its current form, including the District Manager of Peebles Department Store on Fairview Avenue, Alan Dattelbaum.
“Yes, Kohl’s is a department store,” he said. “The 20 year PILOT was offered because there was not another department store in the area...again, Peebles is a department store. I think you’d find Peebles has probably more name brand recognition labels than does Kohl’s.”
Dattelbaum also said that Kohl’s is known for bringing in outside managers, and that it was likely the store would “overhire” for its opening, then let some employees go, meaning that the 120 jobs - 30 percent of which would be full time - promised by Kohl’s would dwindle after its initial opening.
Ghent resident Al Wassenhove asked the IDA to “search your consciousness and the resources of your heart before you cast this aside.”
“Our young people today deserve employment opportunities, which are very scarce in this county.”
“They’re loaded,” Greenport resident Robert Pinkowski said about Kohl’s. He pointed out that Kohl’s 2009 sales were $17 billion, $45 million, and said the full-time jobs offered were “mostly corporate transits that move from store to store to set it up.”
“It seems as though the IDA board is being asked for money to settle a landlord-tenant dispute,” said Hudson Treasurer Eileen Halloran. “I think the threshold question ought to be, what jobs, how much revenue, and what commitment Kohl’s will make if they’re not met.”
Halloran was referencing Marzocchi’s statement that Widewaters needed a 20-year, $290,000 annual lease payment to develop the parcel earmarked for Kohl’s, but that Kohl’s had offered to pay as much as $180,000 annually in rent.
“They’re asking the county taxpayers to invest, if you will, and help them close that gap,” Halloran explained after the meeting.
Former Kinderhook Supervisor Doug McGivney attended the meeting and said a true cost-benefit analysis of the jobs promised should be done. “I think we’re making an assumption that this will improve our job climate,” he said. “In other words, are we just increasing the working poor, or benefiting them?”
Hudson Common Council President Don Moore said he was worried about the potential tax impact a PILOT would have on Hudson and Greenport residents; he said Hudson is already seeing a higher rate of late and defaulted tax payments, and that residents are affected by property tax increases that may come in the future with a large new commercial building.
J. Stephen Rielly, an attorney representing Fairview Plaza, where Peebles is located, said, “one of the issues here is...does this application even comply with Columbia County’s retail store policy?” One thing, he said, is that to grant a PILOT, goods and services provided by a store must be “not reasonably accessible.”
“I don’t believe the application even qualifies for the policy,” he said.
Board of Supervisors Chairman Roy Brown, R-Germantown, spoke in support of the PILOT. “The preceding two years have had a negative impact on our economy,” he said. “Columbia County needs the jobs. 2037 residents filed for unemployment benefits in January of this year...let me assure you, the majority of the Board of Supervisors supports this action and knows it’s the right thing to do.”
Hudson Alderman Sarah Sterling said she took a trip to visit the Kohl’s in Kingston and asked how many employees it has. They told her 50.
“That’s going to be the real number. 50,” she said.
Claverack resident Howard Brandston, who has worked on design for several retail properties, gave the example of Bal Harbour Shops in Florida -- who at one point, paid all property and school taxes, leaving residents tax-free.
“That retail pays all the taxes to the community. Somehow or other, when a profit is made, benefit should come to the community,” he said, adding “Widewaters’ development is the lowest common denominator of shopping center design as I know it.”
Via phone later on Friday, Flood told the Register-Star he planned to do his due diligence in negotiating an agreement so that Kohl’s might still come to Greenport Commons.
“We welcome Kohl’s into the county with open arms. I will be reaching out to Marco of Widewaters early next week...I’ll work as hard as I possibly can to get Kohl’s here.”
To reach reporter Francesca Olsen call 518-828-1616, ext. 2272, or e-mail folsen@registerstar.com.
The board voted unanimously that the application “not be accepted in its current form,” followed by applause from a large cross-section of residents and elected officials who attended the 8 a.m. IDA meeting.
The IDA board members agreed that they felt uncomfortable with a 20-year PILOT. Director of Planning and Economic Development Ken Flood said he would continue to negotiate with Widewaters representatives for a shorter PILOT term.
“I’d love to see a Kohl’s come in,” said Mary Ackley of the IDA board. “Bottom line, I don’t feel comfortable with the 20 years.”
Widewaters General Counsel of Retail Development Marco Marzocchi has repeatedly said that without a PILOT, there would be no Kohl’s, and that the 20-year time line is non-negotiable.
“Kohl’s is a great company. It makes a lot of money. Don’t you want that?” Marzocchi asked the IDA members at the meeting. “Can we get over the term? Otherwise we have nothing to talk about.”
“There has to be room for negotiation,” said Donald Kline, also on the IDA board. “For them to say that that’s not going to happen...to me, that’s being arrogant to us.”
Ackley asked Marzocchi if Widewaters would consider a 15-year PILOT. “We’ve been talking for months with this board,” Marzocchi said.
“And when I did speak with you, it was clear that 20 years was it,” Ackley said.
Sid Richter of the IDA board asked how many PILOTS have been given to Kohl’s in New York state already. Attorney John Faso, who is representing Widewaters, said that his research showed three 20-year retail PILOTS given recently: one in Steuben County, one in Seneca County and one 30-year PILOT in 2009 in Monroe County.
Flood said he spoke with two attorneys from law firms who serve as counsel to a number of upstate New York IDAs and “when I talked to them, they did not remember any 20 year PILOT with no taxes on a new building for retail.”
Members of the public were permitted to comment before the vote on the PILOT application. While some were heavily in favor of the application’s approval, most who spoke did not think the application should be approved in its current form, including the District Manager of Peebles Department Store on Fairview Avenue, Alan Dattelbaum.
“Yes, Kohl’s is a department store,” he said. “The 20 year PILOT was offered because there was not another department store in the area...again, Peebles is a department store. I think you’d find Peebles has probably more name brand recognition labels than does Kohl’s.”
Dattelbaum also said that Kohl’s is known for bringing in outside managers, and that it was likely the store would “overhire” for its opening, then let some employees go, meaning that the 120 jobs - 30 percent of which would be full time - promised by Kohl’s would dwindle after its initial opening.
Ghent resident Al Wassenhove asked the IDA to “search your consciousness and the resources of your heart before you cast this aside.”
“Our young people today deserve employment opportunities, which are very scarce in this county.”
“They’re loaded,” Greenport resident Robert Pinkowski said about Kohl’s. He pointed out that Kohl’s 2009 sales were $17 billion, $45 million, and said the full-time jobs offered were “mostly corporate transits that move from store to store to set it up.”
“It seems as though the IDA board is being asked for money to settle a landlord-tenant dispute,” said Hudson Treasurer Eileen Halloran. “I think the threshold question ought to be, what jobs, how much revenue, and what commitment Kohl’s will make if they’re not met.”
Halloran was referencing Marzocchi’s statement that Widewaters needed a 20-year, $290,000 annual lease payment to develop the parcel earmarked for Kohl’s, but that Kohl’s had offered to pay as much as $180,000 annually in rent.
“They’re asking the county taxpayers to invest, if you will, and help them close that gap,” Halloran explained after the meeting.
Former Kinderhook Supervisor Doug McGivney attended the meeting and said a true cost-benefit analysis of the jobs promised should be done. “I think we’re making an assumption that this will improve our job climate,” he said. “In other words, are we just increasing the working poor, or benefiting them?”
Hudson Common Council President Don Moore said he was worried about the potential tax impact a PILOT would have on Hudson and Greenport residents; he said Hudson is already seeing a higher rate of late and defaulted tax payments, and that residents are affected by property tax increases that may come in the future with a large new commercial building.
J. Stephen Rielly, an attorney representing Fairview Plaza, where Peebles is located, said, “one of the issues here is...does this application even comply with Columbia County’s retail store policy?” One thing, he said, is that to grant a PILOT, goods and services provided by a store must be “not reasonably accessible.”
“I don’t believe the application even qualifies for the policy,” he said.
Board of Supervisors Chairman Roy Brown, R-Germantown, spoke in support of the PILOT. “The preceding two years have had a negative impact on our economy,” he said. “Columbia County needs the jobs. 2037 residents filed for unemployment benefits in January of this year...let me assure you, the majority of the Board of Supervisors supports this action and knows it’s the right thing to do.”
Hudson Alderman Sarah Sterling said she took a trip to visit the Kohl’s in Kingston and asked how many employees it has. They told her 50.
“That’s going to be the real number. 50,” she said.
Claverack resident Howard Brandston, who has worked on design for several retail properties, gave the example of Bal Harbour Shops in Florida -- who at one point, paid all property and school taxes, leaving residents tax-free.
“That retail pays all the taxes to the community. Somehow or other, when a profit is made, benefit should come to the community,” he said, adding “Widewaters’ development is the lowest common denominator of shopping center design as I know it.”
Via phone later on Friday, Flood told the Register-Star he planned to do his due diligence in negotiating an agreement so that Kohl’s might still come to Greenport Commons.
“We welcome Kohl’s into the county with open arms. I will be reaching out to Marco of Widewaters early next week...I’ll work as hard as I possibly can to get Kohl’s here.”
To reach reporter Francesca Olsen call 518-828-1616, ext. 2272, or e-mail folsen@registerstar.com.
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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the view of registerstar.com.
sampratt wrote on Feb 5, 2010 4:13 PM:
" Marzocchi doesn't see the irony in his on words... First he says that Kohl's is a "great company" that "makes a lot of money." Then he wants the taxpayers to close the gap on their rent.
So which is it, Marco? Does Kohl's have a lot of money, or do they need taxpayer subsidies?
Sounds like the way they make so much money is by finding suckers who will cave in to pressure tactics, and hand them a big tax discount. Good for the IDA for calling this bluff. "
So which is it, Marco? Does Kohl's have a lot of money, or do they need taxpayer subsidies?
Sounds like the way they make so much money is by finding suckers who will cave in to pressure tactics, and hand them a big tax discount. Good for the IDA for calling this bluff. "
Committee of One wrote on Feb 6, 2010 12:20 AM:
" Unlike industrial projects, retail stores have to go where the customers are. If Kohls thinks our community will make a profit for their store, they will come here. Any extra bribe that county offers just makes their life sweeter and rewards their lobbyists. Call their bluff.
The Chairman of the County Board of Supervisors is ready to give them what they want -- a free ride on our backs. "
The Chairman of the County Board of Supervisors is ready to give them what they want -- a free ride on our backs. "
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swingbatter2 wrote on Feb 5, 2010 3:44 PM: